First Impressions: Smashing Pumpkins - Zeitgeist

Smashing Pumpkins - Zeitgeist (Reprise)

Release Date: 07/07/07

Tracklisting:

1. Doomsday Clock [3:41]
2. 7 Shades Of Black [3:15]
3. Orchid [3:58]
4. That's The Way [3:44] <- KEY TRACK
5. Tarantula [3:47]
6. Starz [3:41]
7. United States [9:50]
8. Never Lost [4:13] <- KEY TRACK
9. Bring The Light [3:35]
10. Come On (Let's Go) [3:15]
11. For God And Country [4:51]
12. Pomp And Circumstance [4:18]

Background:

• Produced by Billy Corgan and Jimmy Chamberlin, with Roy Thomas Baker and Terry Date working separately on various tracks.

• Billed as a "reunion", though only Corgan and drummer Jimmy Chamberlin are present.

• It's the first Smashing Pumpkins album since 2000's Machina suite. In the interm Corgan has done one Zwan album and one solo album.

First Impressions:

• Tracks #1 thru #7 are all aggresive, up-tempo guitar rock except for #4, "That's The Way", which is our guess for 1st single as it's the most "pop" track with a catchy verse and chorus.

• "Never Lost" is one of the only ballad-y tracks. Like many of the Pumpkins' classics, it is low-key, but still driven by its composition and melodies. Plus there are strings.

• The last two tracks are the only ones which are keyboard driven, with "Pomp And Circumstance" sporting timpani drums, choir-like vocals and squelching guitar.

• Corgan's signature guitar tone is still as rich and forceful as it ever was.

• As we have seen with the new lineup, Corgan's voice is what (supposedly) defines the Smashing Pumpkins as a band. But, much like in Zwan, here it seems that his natural angst is somewhat artificial and his screaming seems mellow in comparison the Pumpkins of the past.

Prediction:

• With the recent commercial success of new bands like Silversun Pickups, it's uncertain whether or not the those outside the core SP fanbase will feel the need to reacquaint themselves with Smashing Pumpkins.

Comments

i am so pumped for THE SMASHING PUMPKINS return!!!

[JG]

Thing is, Silversun Pickups really don't sound like the Pumpkins (not enough of a Sabbath influence). I'm not worried.....it could be good

[torr]

it's not that SSPU sound-like like SP, it's that they fill a similar niche on modern-rock format stations, and thus a piece of the mainstream.

[Devi Ever]

Where is the leak?

leak prz

[BOP]

I think this might be the most pumped I've ever been...I need to go lie down.

[Ben]

This is pretty terrific.

...leak plz

[Nesretep]

We NEED more detailed song descriptions! Come on, this is one of the most anticipated releases of the year, give us some specifics.

Also, the "Prediction" is unbelievably non-committal. Is the album good or not?

[Nesretep]

PS: Silversun Pickups!? Smashing Pumpkins are without a doubt one of the greatest bands of the last 20 years; it's laughable to compare them to some My Bloody Valentine clone.

and where are your impressions? is it good or bad to you?

[ladeda]

The Silversun Pickups comparison is really stupid. First of all, they don't sound anything alike. Just because both vocalists have a similar voice does not mean the bands are the same. Secondly, to actually think Silversun Pickups are going to saturate the Pumpkins' potential is laughable, and vice-versa. Don't keep running with that meaningless crap when you actually review this album. The impressions seem pretty informative otherwise, but that was just a really dumb thing to say.

I for one am very excited to hear Zeitgeist. The Pumpkins will no doubt turn out one of the decade's best rock albums. Say what you will, but Billy Corgan and Jimmy Chamberlin are a force to be reckoned with. Chamberlin is also living proof that Billy does NOT call all the shots; those two are the Page and Plant of the band.

While no James Iha and Darcy may be disappointing, a reunion is indeed possible without them. They allowed the Pumpkins to remain the Pumpkins for the Adore album and tour, because they were important. But Jimmy Chamberlin is the band's "secret weapon" and most talented member, as Corgan has admitted himself in the past. I'd much rather have the Pumpkins be just Billy and Jimmy at the core, and not Billy, James, and Darcy with a drummer that could never fill Jimmy's shoes.

[sal]

silversun pickups sound like early smashing pumpkins. deal with it!

[ladeda]

Um, no they don't. Caravanas and Gish are not alike at all. I like Silversun Pickups, but as someone who has been listening to the Pumpkins since 1995, I can tell you that there are no similarities. Even the Pumpkins' pre-Gish material does not sound like Silversun Pickups. Deal with it.

[ladeda]

I bet sal is going to tell me that My Chemical Romance sounds like early Pumpkins, too. LOL.

[Chuck]

Silversun Pickups is absolutely the shittiest fucking band I've ever heard in my entire fucking life and sound like a mediocre photocopy of My Bloody Valetine.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most underrated bands ever: Billy Corgan is a waaaaay underrated guitarist, Jimmy Chamberlin is one of rock's ALL-TIME greatest drummers, and Siamese Dream is one of rock's greatest ALL-TIME albums. Why do they never get any respect and get compared to shitty hipster bands like SSP and awful emo garbage like My Chemical Romance?

[ladeda]

Chuck: Because the Pumpkins are a snobby indie fan's worst nightmare: A band that could have very well remained independent but figured out a way to sell out but still do whatever the hell they wanted. I like a lot of indie, but some fans and reviewers act ridiculous.

The Pumpkins are not as popular as they were in, say, 1993-1997. That's why I can't understand how so many people throw a hissy fit every time Billy Corgan does something. They claim him to be irrelevant and doing something stupid; why waste so much time complaining if supposedly no one cares? A lot of music journalists and Internet bedroom critics alike love to use this guy as a punching bag, and it just doesn't make sense. Especially now.

The lame comparisons to My Chemical Romance and Silversun Pickups are typical of any music publication, as they're always looking for bands that "sound like" older ones. It's about as worn out as "top ___ of all time" articles, and the trend needs to die.

[Jenn]

With the recent commercial success of new bands like Silversun Pickups...

It's a casual comparison. It got ya'll to react to the article, which is what they're looking for. Well done on feeding it.

[Kilredstar30]

I used to play in a band that played shows on a regular basis with the Silversun Pickups in Silverlake from 2001 to 2004… I had several arguments with Brian the lead singer of the Silversun Pickups in regards to the best Pumpkins album. He claimed he was a big fan of the Pumpkins but thought their only good album that was worth listening too was Gish.
He had some theory that the only good album any band makes is their first album. Every album after that was irrelevant because the rawness of the music was gone if the band became successful. If he still believes that he might as well not make a second album with the Silversun Pickups because it will not be as good as their first official album Caravanas.

At the time his band sounded like a crappy psychedelic version of Gish. The first incarnation of the band was a Gish rip off because he based his sound off of the Gish. So it is easy to see there is a Smashing Pumpkins Gish influence… though it is not as apparent in their newer music. It’s fine to say the Silversun Pickups are influenced by the Smashing Pumpkins, but it is not ok to compare them to the Smashing Pumpkins or even put them in the same league as the Pumpkins

[Michael]

Sorry but the Silversun Pickups not only dont sound like the Pumpkins, they sound crap. Silversun Pickups are not good. I really dont see the relevance of the Silversun pickups, the Pumpkins are above them.

[spencer]

Sorry but the Silversun Pickups not only dont sound like the Pumpkins, So it is easy to see there is a Smashing Pumpkins Gish influence… Silversun Pickups is absolutely the shittiest fucking band I've ever heard in my entire fucking life and Silversun pickups sound like early smashing pumpkins. deal with it! um, no they don't. Caravanas and Gish are not alike at all. The Silversun Pickups comparison is really stupid. First of all, they don't sound anything alike. Silversun pickups sound like early smashing pumpkins. deal with it!

[Mase WKZQ]

I really don't think SSPU's sound that much like the Pumpkins. I think "Lazy Eye" sounds like "1979", but that is it. I am excited for the new Pumpkins album...although they might as well call it ZWAN without James Iha.

[ladeda]

the actual songs Zwan did , save Spilled Milk and maybe a couple others, were not very pumpkins-like. Sure you had Billy's voice but that can't be changed.

[Don K]

I dont understand why everyones getting so angry about the Silversun Pickups comparisson....

I was a die hard Pumpkins fan. When I first heard the Silversun Pickups single on the radio I thought instantly "wow, this sounds like it belongs on Pisces Iscariot" and never once heard anyone else compare the two....so it's definitely there, let it go. It's not the same band, I think everyone knows that - but the guitar tones, the way the song was written, the melody, the 90's style rock, - it sure did remind me instantly of SP and I wasnt basing that at all on the vocals.

[Hitler]

Smashing Pumpkins + Silversun Pickups + My Chemical Romance in the same sentence... that sounds as good as -> I + Like + Eating + Sh** + For + Breakfast...

go find a fuc**** soul you idiot

[SP fan]

SP is waaaay better than SP you c*nts.

[B]

The Person Whom Wrote This Is Just Doing & Saying The Same Fucking Shit That Dumb Ass People Have Been Saying Since Adore Came Out...The Truth Lies Here The Smashing Pumpkins Don't Want To Be Put In A Box They Change & Grow And If People Don't Like It Then Too Bad They Are Going To Put Out A Good Album Just Like They Did With Every Album Before It's Not Always Go To Be The Same ..So I Figure This Album Will Be Huge & It's Time For People To Maybe Give Up On The I Hate Billy Corgan Band Wagon & Give The Guy A Chance...& FUCK Silversun Pickups Bunch Of Fucking HOMOS THEY BLOW don't even put them in the same league as the Smashing Pumpkins..their doing a piss poor job of ripping of early Pumpkins and it shows hard so whom ever wrote this eat my shit you fucking cock sucker

[johnb]

You Pumpkins fans are too cute. Every band sounds like a band that came before them. Thats the nature of music.

[matt thomas]

hello, how are all of you, fine i hope:)

my feelings on zeitgeist are thus:

the smashing pumpkins have never let me down, on every album they have successfully re-invented themselves, even on adore. i thought that adore was one of the best albums of all time. it diddnt have jimmy and that was sad, but it wasnt supposed to sound like the pumpkins with jimmy. it was different and just because it wasnt loud rocking it doesnt mean it diddnt rock. i found it still rocked. i love that album,

and as for zeitgeist i believe that we will see something marvolous and different and beautiful, something for the times and something that will connect with the listener.

im a lill dissapointed that the album looks like it will only be about 50mins long, but hey beggers cant be choosers. i think this album is gonna rock and reawaken fans of the past present and future.

i cant wait to hear what billy has to sing about, i cant wait to hear the positive messages he has to adress. ive always found that he's done that with his music, even w the solo album and zwan. we need more inspirational artists like this, artists who care about the world and the people on it. as well as the betterness and hope for mankind.

you just wait and see, zeitgeist is more than just a reunion, it will be a revolution.

look at the lyrics on machina, how wonderfully the arrangements were and you will see, i hope, well i know zeitgeist will take music in a new direction.

machina did and even if those reviews wernt that good, we have to face up. out of a ton of music that comes out around the time sp albums come out, it seems that sp is not only the band that does something completely origional, but they always keep the same core and yet they always sound different. this is what music needs(continuous growth)and unconditional love.

lets face it we live in a time where teenage angst rules, everyone feels jaded, all i hear is songs about sex and infidelity and violence and getting high and negitive negitive negitive.

the news and radios and media and papers are full of it. lets bring back the positive for a change???
growing up music has always been my influence, lets give the kids of tomorrow something to really cherish, i know zeitgeist will.

well ive ranted long enough, take care all of you and have a great weekend.

[Matt]

Am I the only one here who likes My Chemical Romance, Silversun Pickups, AND Smashing Pumpkins?
Also, to whoever said the guy from SSPU and billy corgan have similar voices.. WHAT? First time i heard SSPU I was convinced it was a girl singing.... You know, i dont think either MCR or SSPU sound anything like SP. Its just.... theres seomthing reminicent in both bands to SP and you jsut cant figure out why...

[saso]

i love you pumpkins!!!

[duriuk]

u really dont like the smashing pumpkins properly if u like mcr. i say u have rotten apples and maybe mellon collie and listen to a few songs off them.i think the speed that mcr bring out new albums and videos show that there just a manufactured piece of shit trying to appeal to people wha want to seem gothy or emo or whatever its called.

[u r lame]

lame

[u r lame]

lame

[john]

I CAN'T WAIT!!

[ZeroTheHero]

To matt thomas: I also thought it was a girl singing the first time I heard the Silversun Pickups.

[heyfags]

Tarantula is the new single released on 21st of May.

[stokazz]

what scares me the most in the above review
is when it says:

"(...)much like in Zwan, here it seems that his natural angst is somewhat artificial and his screaming seems mellow in comparison the Pumpkins of the past."

i don't want another zwan album where billy was singing happily about god and love and understanding. that's not the pumpkins. that's crap.

[Natalie]

Silversun pickups is Smashing Pumpkins retarded cousin. The lead singer sounds like a chick.

[Matt]

"u really dont like the smashing pumpkins properly if u like mcr. i say u have rotten apples and maybe mellon collie and listen to a few songs off them."

... I have all of the smashing pumpkins albums, including Machina II and i love it all. I also have the one Zwan Album and his Solo Album. And I like MCR.. so.... there. take that.

[saul]

Their are so many people in this thread who missed the point of the silversun pickups reference, i dont think he said they were a better band, but that they will be more commercially successful than the new smashing pumpkins album, most likely because smashing pumpkins is passed their marketability date, and as far as the sspu and the pumpkins comparisons go, they share a similar sound through guitar tone, and the key they play in. Listen to comeback kid off the ep pakala than listen to the guitar in today (the part where billy sings "i wanna turn you on") the tones and such are similar thats were i see the comparison is justified

[arbjork]

When you mention "SP fanbase" is it intended to be Smashing Pumpkins or Silversun Pickups?

[Isaiah]

If you like MCR then you only by some freak coincidence like the Pumpkins too... probably because someone you admire told you that they were cool so you jumped on the bandwagon. Seriously, if you like MCR you have sold your soul already. what do you think Billy would say about MCR?

[pumpkinhead]

I'll tell you exactly what Billy would say if you told him you like mcr. he would say NOTHING!!! He would just whip out a guitar and blast your brains out by playing The Everlasting Gaze at full volume. KICKASS!!!! also, anyone looking to download a high-quality version of Tarantula, go to http://ozphoria.com/ and its not just the 30 second thing, its the whole song. HELL YEAH

[pumpkinhead]

Plus, what douchebag in his right mind could possibly like my chemical romance? I mean, come ON! why dont you go cut yourself in the ladies room you emo mofo

[Seabass]

I quite like both bands but definately prefer muffins

[Jordan]

"Am I the only one here who likes My Chemical Romance, Silversun Pickups, AND Smashing Pumpkins?
Also, to whoever said the guy from SSPU and billy corgan have similar voices.. WHAT? First time i heard SSPU I was convinced it was a girl singing.... You know, i dont think either MCR or SSPU sound anything like SP. Its just.... theres seomthing reminicent in both bands to SP and you jsut cant figure out why..."

God I hope so.

[Jordan]

"what do you think Billy would say about MCR?"

Actually Billy jokes all the time about how Gerard Way is his secret child because they look alike .... which BY THE WAY is the only reason MCR and SP have ever been uttered in the same sentence. Billy doesn't care about upstaging MCR, dude liked Van Halen in high school and wrote shitty newspaper articles idolizing David Lee Roth, he probably listens to more shitty rock than you guys think.

[Andrew]

I think the point is not that SP and SSPU sound alike or can be compared, it's that the current direction of modern alternative is really not in sync with the Pumpkins sound and that regardless of how passionatly the SP core embraces this new album, the rest of the world may not give a S#$7. We'll see if the album can live up to the title.

[slothroplt]

Too say that the Silversun Pickups don't sound like the Pumpkins -- at all -- is idiotic. Are they interchangeable? Of course not. But the influence is there and the sound is, too. Pumpkins fans don't to be ashamed or embarassed about that. It doesn't diminsh Smashing Pumpkins in any way. In fact it's a compliment to the band for being SO GOOD that they now live in the musical heads of this generation of artists and will, undoubtedly, fit comfortably in the next one, too.

[BigDaddy Jim]

First of all, the debate of whether or not SSPU sounds like the pumpkins or not doesnt' matter. Both bands are unique and awesome. The fact is SSPU
has a pumpkins sound, not saying they sound like them... anyway, the name might be Smashing Pumpkins, but listen kids, without D'arcy and Jimmy Iha, it won't come close to what it should be, this new tour and album...sorry

[marco]

i have no idea who the hell silversun scream are, or whatever the fuck theyr called but i cant imagine anything sounding like the smashing pumpkins. i mean come on, they have two of the greatest, most unique sounding musicians ever in their band...ok maybe to the untrained ear they might sound like something else but any true pumpkins fan will be pleased with the new album!

[marco]

and big daddy jim, who the fuck is jimmy iha??? you call yourself a pumpkins fan?!?

[frosty]

OK, enough with the stupid hyperbole about the Silversun Pickups being the worst band ever. Jesus Mary and Joseph, people, grow the hell up and realize you're giving truly shitty bands like Creed and Nickelback some unintended credit. The Silversun Pickups are not bad, but yes, they ARE obviously influenced by My Bloody Valentine, so much so that I can't see how one could like one and not the other.

Guess who else was HEAVILY influenced by My Bloody Valentine and the "shoegazer" sound (you kiddies DO know what that is, right)? The Smashing effing Pumpkins. Keep up with your rock history, children. That is where the Silversun/Pumpkins comparisons come in...it's that shoegazer sound. If you can't hear it, you're deaf. In any event, it's absolutely stupid to tell people who hear it that it doesn't exist. Some ears are trained better than others, but then some people commenting on this are no doubt neophytes to alternative music.

[frosty]

Regarding the "no D'arcy or James" debate, quite frankly, D'arcy was by far the least talented member of the band. She was an average bass talent at best, and was nothing more than the female stage presence, easily replaced for a time by Melissa Auf der Mar. If D'arcy wanted to prove otherwise she'd come back.

James may be missed, but Corgan is the key guitar element and always was.

Even in album recordings, Corgan and Chamberlain reportedly did virtually ALL the instrument work, at least for Siamese Dream (and likely all the others, despite any well-intentioned denial of this).

The Pumpkins were ALWAYS primarily Corgan and Chamberlain. Where do people think D'arcy and James Iha got all that time for their little pet side schemes back in the day?

[spiteface]

Haha.... these comments are great. SSPU's are a good band... they definitely come from the same thread as the Pumpkins.... no they don't sound exactly like them.... and no they don't sound "crap" as some comments would make it out.

And anyone who says the SSPU's sound like My Bloody Valentine probably should go pick up a MBV album before saying something so idiotic in a public forum.

[San]

I wonder why so many of you compare Smashing pumpkins with that amateurish band what's it called again oh yeah... My chemical bullshit PFFF.

Anyway I have listened to a few tracks; Tarantula, doomsday clock, that's the way, never lost, united states(absolutely rockin), For god and country and also Bleed the orchid, from ZEITGEIST and I am pretty impressed with the quality of this record. I have always been an sp fan since gish and of course i have all of their albums...

To me Zeitgeist sounds more like a few tracks of the disc two of the SP greatest hits which came out in 2001. It also has a bit of a zwan feel but darker which can be noticed in tracks such as Tarantula and never lost. Compared with the amazingly riddled Machina, Zeitgeist comes across as being more straight forward. The songs For god and country and STARZ deliver a strong message.

For those of you both pumpkin fans and non pumpkin fans who are having second thoughts in buying this album I'd say HELL YEAH GET IT 10/07/07!!!

[Boris]

Arazamataz in the ballroom.

[neil5280]

Hey Everyone,

So I got to this site by typing "does anyone think the silversun pickups sound like smashing pumpkins?" into Google (without quotes). Clearly, I thought they did.

I'm a big Smashing Pumpkins fan, but I'm not rabid by any means.

The first time I heard silver sun it was "Lazy Eye" on the radio. I got really excited and thought, "Wow, this sounds like early Smashing Pumpkins with a female lead." The excitement stemmed from knowing that one day Smashing Pumpkins will leave us for good and thinking, "Maybe they'll grow into a great band just like the Smashing Pumpkins".

Of course, since then, I've found out the lead is a male, but I was also glad to see that I'm not the only one to make that mistake.

Comparisons to My Bloody Valentine are probably valid (http://www.pandora.com/music/artist/aa35814e85e39815), but I've never listened to them, so I wouldn't know.

You should never be startled to find that someone thinks what you find to be a lesser band sounds like a band that you hold in high esteem. This is the way of the world.

Being open to others' thoughts can lead to new horizons in your music world. If you can't embrace them, at least be tolerant of them and accept that someone thinks what they think. An opinion is just that. Be good to one another.

Peace,

neil5280

[Zer033]

The thing about Zwan and Billy's solo effort that people might not get is that the sound for those albums was intentional. Billy is capable of making pumpkin sounding songs whenever he wants as Zeitgeist shows it really does sound like the pumpkins. I think a lot of people confused Zwan and the solo album as Billy losing something musically when really he was just not wanting to make pumpkins-like songs by a different name. The Smashing Pumpkins are a sound, a sound I really can't compare to anything else including Silversun Pickups. This sound we all know and love is back on Zeitgeist even if all the original members aren't back.

[GoreSmasher]

The only similarity between SilverSun and Pumpkins are some vocal stylings. Pumpkins are much more powerful on every level. Pumpkins has a certain soul to it that no one has ever replicated.

[Shannon M]

Zero33....totally agree. Amen!!!!

I am so counting down to the release of The Smashing Pumpkins Zeitgeist!!!!! I am so thrilled that I can just explode.

[Patrick]

There's a reason why MCR is the most popular emo band. It's because most emo bands sort of suck and MCR is one of the few that doesn't. Just listen to an album all the way through and you will realize that they have some very good stuff.

Of course compared to The Pumpkins MCR is nothing that great. And btw MCR was influenced by The Pumpkins. They've said it. That's why people might compare The Pumpkins and MCR. Really they don't have much in common aside from the fact that Billy and Gerard both sing with alot of emotion.

[MarkWhenamn]

I got the album and it ROCKS!!!!!You will NOT be disappointed..err unless you prefer Silverskin Pickups where a lot of hats may be eaten

[MarkWhenamn]

I got the album and it ROCKS!!!!!You will NOT be disappointed..err unless you prefer Silverskin Pickups where a lot of hats may be eaten

[got it early too]

I got the cd already and this review is spot on. Overall the cd is amazing and NONE of you will be disappointed. I cant wait to see what they do next.

[Davo]

I have listened to this Album and i love it. I think there is a lot of Pumpkins rock in it for fans that want to hear Pumkins without going back over the old archive.

I does'nt have the inocence, honesty and genius of youth rock that the earlier albums have but it has something i can't yet put my finger on. When we look back onto this in years to come it will be remembered by fans as one of their favourites.

Bollocks

Look you pretencious tossers thinking you're Q(2 star) magazine.....

See them live....like I did in London. Nearly three hours and to any FAN awesome. To be frank, if you don't like SP by now, go away. Yes, go away nicely, i'm polite.

The new album may be crap but in Tarantula they have the best live track ever and they have so much material to make debate a waste of time.

The new band is here, i've seen them and i tell you, i CANNOT wait for READING FESTIVAL!!!!

[Arif Azizi]

Jeez.. what are u guys talking abt anyway?! I dont write in these forums ever, but i just had to by the way you guys have been arguing over the 2 bands.

I for one am a BIG PUMPKINS FAN! lemme ask you this..u've never wanted to play in a band and play pumpkins music? u've never wanted to write something that sounds remotely like the pumpkins? any of u guitarists out there ever had that smile on your face when u came up with a riff and thought "hey.. thats something the pumpkins would've played"?

Sounds to me like sour grapes. let Silversun Pickups have their day. Music's music. it's supposed to sound good and get ppl to feel good about something.. evoke a thought.. bring back memories.. not fight over it like a 6 year old telling another one "my dad's gonna kick your ass coz he's bigger than yours!"

I love Pumpkins but i do agree with the last guy.. the new album's not that good. it sounds rushed. in fact.. with billy's latest work, Zwan was the best and who cares that it's not very Pumpkin-ish. They evolved with Adore and Machina so the Pumpkins could've sounded like Zwan did if they never broke up.

[dude]

whats with the silent dracula look. his guit riff writing is top notch as always

first of all I would agree that the smashing pumpkins are obviously better than the silversun pickups - but I think most of you only listen to music and arent actually musicians yourselves mainly because it is quite obvious that sspu was influenced by the pumpkins. Listen quite deeply to the melodies, harmonies, fuzz, emotional peaks etc....they are the same genre of weird, but duh....not the same thing. I think sspu is really good, and has a lot of potential - they are still a new band so give their sound a chance to evolve.....after all it took bc 2/3 albums to get it right with siamese dream, and mellon collie. All the other pumpkins albums are great but by no sense of the word compare to these 2.